National 4 (Spotlight Weekly)

"The Government Needs Support Of Middle Class (For Heritage Preservation)"

— Niels Gutsttow

NIELS GUTSTTOW, professor at Heidelberg University Germany, is a well-known architect. Born in 1947 in Germany, he first came to Nepal in 1962. Gutsttow returned to Nepal in 1970 and 1971 to restore Bihar in Bhaktapur. Since that time, he did a number of research on architecture of Bhaktapur, Gorkha, Nuwakot and Mustang. He has also published a book on Nepalese Caitya. Gutsttow comes to Nepal every year and stays for five months under tourist visa and returns to Germany. Although he has such affection towards Nepal, strangely this Nepal lover has not been found 'eligible' for non-residential visa. “I love your country very much. Whatever the status of my visa, I feel this is my second home,” said Gutsttow who is now supervising the renovation of Itumbaha in Kathmandu. He spoke to KESHAB POUDEL at Itumbaha on issues of heritage conservation and architecture. Excerpts:

You have been to Nepal for quite a long time supporting the renovations of Nepal’s ancient architectures. What inspires you to do so?

I came first to Nepal 42 years ago as a young boy who was traveling around the world. During my first visit, I spent just 10 days here. I knew already that this would be a place I would like to spend my energy and time. As soon as I finished my architectural study, I returned to Nepal in 1970 and learned about the project designed by the German Embassy that was Pujarimath in Bhaktapur. I went to the site and made a proposal on how to renovate that building. Later we started the work in that building. I am mainly a researcher so I did not actually take part in renovation. In 1970s, I mostly did research because I saw Bhaktapur as one of the most wonderful places in the world. It is so not only architecturally but also socially and ritually. I spent a few years in Bhaktapur to understand the Newar culture. After that phase, I did few other renovation projects. We have already renovated Ombaha in Patan. Later, I built two new Stupas in Godavari.

How do you see the process of modernization in Nepal?

Nepal entered into modern world very late. After the land reforms in 1962, everything became confused because the land revenue department could not cope with the problems of inscribed tillers and inscribed owners. There is confusion all over the country over the ownership. It takes a generation to settle the ownership issue in the modern sense.

Do you receive enough cooperation and support from local population, government agencies and others in your zeal to renovate the old stupas in Nepal?

Lets say that it is not difficult to find money in Germany to renovate Nepalese heritage sites but it is to get cooperation here. That means somehow very often we come with our pockets full of money and it turns out to be difficult to spend here because there comes up ownership problems. Often, there are different opinions on how to solve the problem. Traditionalists here in Nepal say that you have to pull down the old buildings in order to build new ones. We believe that you should respect something that you have and we would like you to keep historic fabric intact as much as possible. Our friends here in Itumbaha have different opinions on placing windows. We believe that we have to respect what our ancestors did.

Why such disputes then?

We feel that old window carries a message of some other time and we should not depart from it. There is no universal rule that you can observe when you work on buildings here in Kathmandu or Bhaktapur or elsewhere. Every building is like a certain individual. Like we human beings, different buildings have different stories. Every building has its own history. It definitely helps to understand what it needs.

How has been your stay in Nepal?

In 1989, our younger daughter decided to be here with us. We stayed here for two years with our younger daughter. That was my longest period of staying in Nepal. Since then I cook here for a short period of time. Somehow your government does not like me to stay more than five months a year here in Nepal. The visa problem is problems for all of us because to go for residential visa is almost impossible.

You mean it caused you problems?

It is OK. I am staying five months here and I enjoy that. Whenever we come, we (me and my wife) feel that this is our home. That is important for us. Occasionally, our children also come here but when we come here we always feel fine and happy as this is our second home. I am soon leaving for Germany and it is difficult time for us to leave our home. However, I feel very much at home in two different worlds. Of course, my language belongs to Germany but my heart belongs to two worlds. I am a guest in Nepal.

Since there are already problems in world heritage sites like in Patan, Swoyambhu, Bouddhanath and Kathmandu Durbar square, are we really in a position to protect our heritage?

There is a little chance to preserve heritage. Of course, it depends mainly on the aspiration of middle class and upper middle class. You have to earn your motorbike then you have to earn your car. As soon as you get set up with your car, you start thinking about other aspirations. Suddenly, you remember what your grandfather did. Then on, you will be willing and able to contribute also from your pocket towards the preservation of heritage. It is not only a question of money. It is luxury to take care of your heritage. Legally, the government needs support of middle class.

How do you see the legal environment vis-à-vis heritage preservation?

There are laws to preserve the heritage sites but the government is helpless because the police are un-dependable as they don’t exercise their authority to preserve heritage. If a citizen does anything wrong against the heritage sites, the government is helpless since police hardly punish the wrongdoers. In other countries, the legislation is clear about heritage sites stipulating what one should do or not do. If someone violates law, he/ she will be swiftly prosecuted. I have never seen any case in the last 30 years in Nepal where we could depend on police to implement building codes.

You mean there is a weak executive to execute the decisions?

The executive has been very weak in Nepal. Besides if intellectuals, civil society and middle class do not support, even the strong government cannot do anything to preserve them. You can do preservation without police if citizens are cooperative and sincere. To have a house in world heritage site means a pride for citizens. Such houses in the heritage site can make profits out of their location. One can support the protection of heritage site by renovating his house in accordance with the old pattern. In the middle class families, there is no vision of importance of living in old house. In Bhaktapur, I live in old house, which is quite comfortable as it has low ceiling height and mud plaster. I really enjoy it. We have to wait until middle class becomes aware about the significance of living in traditional-type houses.

You have written a book on Nepalis Buddhist Caitya. How is it different from other countries of the world?

Every Buddhist country has its own style. Nepalese style started during Lichhivi period in the fifth century. Nepalese stone carving has been extremely inventive to create ever new types of Caitya or Stupa. I searched and I found 2,400 Caitya or Stupa in Kathmandu Valley, which are of unique style that you cannot find anywhere else in the world. Same is true for Japan, Korea, China, Thailand and Sri Lanka, every Buddhist country find their own styles.

As the executive is weak and community is breaking up, how easy is it to renovate the old heritage?

There is no remedy for something like that. You have to cope with these problems and wait for solution. Society will evolve over a long period of time. You cannot change the society and values overnight. The habit and culture cannot be changed by laws, resources or power. It will justify our efforts coming here and spending money taking care of heritage sites. Sometimes I am frustrated to see internal conflict in the community over the issue of renovation and preservations. Whether one likes it or not, this kind of conflict is bound to happen some time. Following the long process of evolution, such culture will modify or change. Some local industrialists have already shown signs of prosperity by contributing to renovate the ancient heritage. It will develop by itself. We read newspapers everyday that some politicians call for awareness. Awareness is there but it takes some time to translate it into practice. On the other hand, we are in a hurry because we see many heritage sites are on the process of ruin. We had faced similar kinds of problem in our country. We lost our heritage during the war.

What are your experiences of working in Bhaktapur and other parts of the valley?

I have been working as researcher in Bhaktapur to understand the local culture. I also worked with Gotz Hagmuller and reconstructed Cyasilia Mandap in Bhaktapur that was finished in 1990. Our then chancellor Helmut Kohl had handed over the money to reconstruct the house. That was our personal wish. We needed it because we were living in Bhaktapur. We felt that after the great earthquake of 1990 B.S., durbar square of Bhaktapur was little bit weak. We always thought that we needed to renovate them. It was very wonderful time in our life because we had the money and made the design and we did the supervision.

What were the differences of working in Itumbaha?

It is different here. The money is coming from German Foreign Ministry and it goes to Kathmandu Valley Preservation Trust (KVPT). So in the name of KVPT, we spend money through a local partner or Baha, a local community. The community has to take necessary permission from the Department of Archeology to cooperate in renovation work. As all other areas, there is dispute over ownership. It was one till a century ago and they still worship the same main deity called Khawapaju. In terms of material ownership, one wing of the temple belongs to one courtyard whereas the other wing belongs to the other. Unfortunately, they do not unite in their efforts for preservation but they fight each other. Itumbaha’s institution was founded in 12th century. This is one of the oldest Baha of Katmandu. The baha was renovated in 1630, 1670 and 1720. It has always been undergoing restoration. As an exception, we have three large windows, which were dated in 16th century. The courtyard was nicely paved in 1920. One wing of the Baha was renovated in 1939 - five years after the great earthquake.

What are the peculiarities in our architectures?

Architecture is never independent because it travels around the world. For instance, Kusana style decoration and Gupta style decoration came in Lichhivi period and it lasted for a long time. Sometime in 10th or 11th century it looked like Kasmiri influence. The Greek influence entered Nepal very late during early 19th century. The Mugal style column also entered Nepal. Under Bhimsen Thapa, Nepal borrowed Anglo-Indian style from Lucknow and even craftsmen came from Lucknow. The craftsmen came from Calcutta to introduce British design in late nineteenth century.

Since your arrival to Nepal back in 1970s, what kind of changes did you notice in construction pattern in valley?

Most decisive change happened in early 1980s when steel from Jamsedpur (India) became cheap enough to replace wood. I cannot say exactly but I had not seen such massive change till 1982. After that suddenly the reinforced concrete took over. In this system, you can introduce any ceiling height. That changed the buildings a lot. You can see different kinds of building structures in Kathmandu with different heights. The new buildings are taller. In 1980s, the municipality officials did not have any idea about how this should be controlled. The height of the building changed the entire climate of the city.

Among three cities of the valley which one do you think is best preserved?

Of course, Bhaktapur is best preserved city under the leadership of Comrade Rohit. In Bhaktapur, the municipality has strong rule and people are conscious. Nobody dares to put any additional height. There are very strict building codes and that is very good. In Kathmandu, I have not seen any local leader to have any vision or idea about the heritage. If you compare the old and new buildings, the new concrete buildings are stealing the public space.

UNESCO has already threatened to withdraw the status of world heritage site from the valley. How do you look at it?

I don’t think UNESCO is threatening but they are actually encouraging Nepalis to take drastic steps. UNESCO has been patient with Nepal for a long time. Back in 1990, it was considered as endangered and your government misunderstood this statement. If we say endanger, actually it means help. Such threat could draw help. After ten years of fruitless discussion, nothing happened. The Nepal government should be clever enough to use this statement in order to draw the support.

How do you see the renovation of Pashupati area?

In Pashupati area, I feel that there are no experts. May be also it is not good to call Pashupati area as a heritage site because it is a living site of ritual. There are so many interests you should take care of. Under the level of heritage, it is difficult to organize so I think it is better to take Pashupati area out of it since recognition of heritage site will only give problems. Actually, to inscribe the world heritage is very easy but once your site is inscribed you will get a lot of problems and very often it is not money but management.

What about Bouddhanath?

Years ago I made a proposal to keep the Bouddhanath Stupa as a monument and confine the height of other buildings around it. I am not talking about the design. You will not be able to convince the Shahujis of Bouddhanath that they need to abide by the law. Only police can control the height. You need ruthless action. Height control is one of the important aspects to preserve the monuments.

How important are the heritage sites in the valley?

I was born in the war and I grew up in rubbish. We had so many bombs in Hamburg and little was left. This gave me a strong feeling about the history and heritage. I believe that no society can survive without the memory of history. Memory means what? It means your father, your grand father and your great grand father and your ancestors. It includes architectures, music, paintings and literature. No society can survive without memory and without respect towards what your ancestors did. You have grown out of your ancestors and you have to pay them respect. This is what Nepalis do in death rituals. If you pay respect to your father, grand father and ancestors through annual rituals, why don't you pay respect to their products like art, architecture, music and literature.

As a foreigner, do you see Nepalese are doing something to preserve their heritage?

I think Nepalis are preoccupied right now as they are facing political problems. To overcome political problem is more important. What is the meaning of heritage at a time of such a political crises. But one not should play a game of what is important and whatInterview is less important. When I say the political crisis is real problem of the country, you also need reconfirmation of your history. I think it is important.